Suicide causes to others much more trauma than would that same person's natural death, or even involuntary premature death. What justification is there in stopping or even preventing future suffering if that is going to cause more anguish, suffering, and even pain to others than those others have to go through? If one's allowed to commit suicide despite all that anguish, then why forbid or condemn universally loathed acts practically assured to be less hurtful than a close one's suicide would be? (stealing $100 from a close friend or family member, whiskey bottle to their face in anger, spreading embarrassing private damaging information about them to others, committing legal yet unethical or otherwise dishonorable business practices, spreading hurtful rumors/character assassination against them). In fact, if we didn't care about others well-being (physical or psychological), then it's difficult to see the point in having any kinds of morals, rules, or even laws at all.
BTW, I tend to be more deontological than utilitarian, and thus believe that we do have duties and obligations to others, because it is wrong to cause pain, suffering, and anguish that is avoidable, insufficiently productive, insufficiently compensatory, and serves no higher purpose beyond the interests of one's own self or the group supporting one's self.
Therefore, sometimes the rights of others do indeed outweigh my own rights. Any denial of this is an argument in favor of moral nihilism or anarchy (in the common everyday sense, rather than the academic/political science one).
Beyond this, suicide would deny people in need (whether those needs are present or future) aid and efforts that, had the suicide lived instead, would have rendered to that person. Not just in terms of building houses, but in terms of activism, buying Fair Trade (TM) coffee or sweat-free clothes. The latter especially is truly "voting with your wallet/purse" - voting against exploiters AND voting for humane employers at the same time, effectively doubling the power of their "vote". Dead people can't buy from the good guys, after all.
Last but not least, we place limits on the logical conclusion of "majority makes the rules" (democracy), "pursuit of financial gain for one's own benefit" (free market capitalism), and "strong should thrive, weaker should be sidelined" (competition in general); yet we label these things 'democracy', 'capitalism', and 'competition' despite any stop short of the logical conclusion and/or definitional purity. Why not allow the same for AN, esp. if the 'impurity' (from your perspective) is there to protect the rights/well-being of others?
So it is that the "AN means Suicide" claim is hasty at best and an outright distortion of the AN basis at worst.
I think you're reading a lot into an image macro that took me three minutes to make.
That said, my main point is gently needling the swollen egos of certain parties who can't see past their own pain and pretend to speak for the universe.
I do appreciate the level of thought and care you've put into this comment, but I don't quite know what you're responding to, so it's a bit difficult for me to read. Certainly a better response to my post than exploiting videos of child murder!
"Certainly a better response to my post than exploiting videos of child murder!"
"There is a great deal of pain in the world. HOWEVER. Antinatalists disregard all feelings or opinions or drives of sentient beings EXCEPT pain, arbitrarily. Second, antinatalists are simply awful at identifying current pains. Rather than speak of particular pains or troubles, antinatalists will ramble endlessly about boredom and futility. As if boredom and futility have anything to do with the problems of thousands of people who are going through REAL extreme pain every day! There seems to be almost a taboo amongst antinatalists of mentioning no-trivial current affairs that relate to antinatalism as if the plight of third world diamond miners or the rise of fascism or persecution of Muslims is simply beneath them. Call me when antinatalists can talk about the world and humanity as it is, rather than in abstract."
Suicide causes to others much more trauma than would that same person's natural death, or even involuntary premature death. What justification is there in stopping or even preventing future suffering if that is going to cause more anguish, suffering, and even pain to others than those others have to go through? If one's allowed to commit suicide despite all that anguish, then why forbid or condemn universally loathed acts practically assured to be less hurtful than a close one's suicide would be? (stealing $100 from a close friend or family member, whiskey bottle to their face in anger, spreading embarrassing private damaging information about them to others, committing legal yet unethical or otherwise dishonorable business practices, spreading hurtful rumors/character assassination against them). In fact, if we didn't care about others well-being (physical or psychological), then it's difficult to see the point in having any kinds of morals, rules, or even laws at all.
ReplyDeleteBTW, I tend to be more deontological than utilitarian, and thus believe that we do have duties and obligations to others, because it is wrong to cause pain, suffering, and anguish that is avoidable, insufficiently productive, insufficiently compensatory, and serves no higher purpose beyond the interests of one's own self or the group supporting one's self.
Therefore, sometimes the rights of others do indeed outweigh my own rights. Any denial of this is an argument in favor of moral nihilism or anarchy (in the common everyday sense, rather than the academic/political science one).
Beyond this, suicide would deny people in need (whether those needs are present or future) aid and efforts that, had the suicide lived instead, would have rendered to that person. Not just in terms of building houses, but in terms of activism, buying Fair Trade (TM) coffee or sweat-free clothes. The latter especially is truly "voting with your wallet/purse" - voting against exploiters AND voting for humane employers at the same time, effectively doubling the power of their "vote". Dead people can't buy from the good guys, after all.
Last but not least, we place limits on the logical conclusion of "majority makes the rules" (democracy), "pursuit of financial gain for one's own benefit" (free market capitalism), and "strong should thrive, weaker should be sidelined" (competition in general); yet we label these things 'democracy', 'capitalism', and 'competition' despite any stop short of the logical conclusion and/or definitional purity. Why not allow the same for AN, esp. if the 'impurity' (from your perspective) is there to protect the rights/well-being of others?
So it is that the "AN means Suicide" claim is hasty at best and an outright distortion of the AN basis at worst.
I think you're reading a lot into an image macro that took me three minutes to make.
DeleteThat said, my main point is gently needling the swollen egos of certain parties who can't see past their own pain and pretend to speak for the universe.
I do appreciate the level of thought and care you've put into this comment, but I don't quite know what you're responding to, so it's a bit difficult for me to read. Certainly a better response to my post than exploiting videos of child murder!
"Certainly a better response to my post than exploiting videos of child murder!"
Delete"There is a great deal of pain in the world. HOWEVER. Antinatalists disregard all feelings or opinions or drives of sentient beings EXCEPT pain, arbitrarily. Second, antinatalists are simply awful at identifying current pains. Rather than speak of particular pains or troubles, antinatalists will ramble endlessly about boredom and futility. As if boredom and futility have anything to do with the problems of thousands of people who are going through REAL extreme pain every day! There seems to be almost a taboo amongst antinatalists of mentioning no-trivial current affairs that relate to antinatalism as if the plight of third world diamond miners or the rise of fascism or persecution of Muslims is simply beneath them. Call me when antinatalists can talk about the world and humanity as it is, rather than in abstract."
Talk about, not trick people into watching videos of things they themselves probably consider good.
Delete...Nooooooo, it's pretty much tricking.
Delete